1 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:12,169 right good afternoon everyone I see some 2 00:00:20,900 --> 00:00:15,890 of you were here from earlier shows so 3 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:20,910 the issues earlier webinars so let me 4 00:00:26,779 --> 00:00:24,570 just briefly do an overview for for 5 00:00:29,570 --> 00:00:26,789 people who may be new here first thing I 6 00:00:32,150 --> 00:00:29,580 wanted to say is this event is being 7 00:00:34,639 --> 00:00:32,160 recorded it will be on YouTube and 8 00:00:37,100 --> 00:00:34,649 everything that you see on the screen is 9 00:00:42,139 --> 00:00:37,110 recorded including the chat window just 10 00:00:45,770 --> 00:00:42,149 so we're all clear on that we are going 11 00:00:49,209 --> 00:00:45,780 to be running for an hour again we have 12 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:49,219 two presenters a series of questions 13 00:00:56,479 --> 00:00:53,010 Michael new is going to set context 14 00:00:59,360 --> 00:00:56,489 again for us and then in the same way 15 00:01:02,720 --> 00:00:59,370 that we have done for previous webinars 16 00:01:05,329 --> 00:01:02,730 we encourage all of the attendees to ask 17 00:01:08,149 --> 00:01:05,339 questions make points and that sort of 18 00:01:12,050 --> 00:01:08,159 thing as we go along and I will try to 19 00:01:14,780 --> 00:01:12,060 pick them up and certainly after of now 20 00:01:17,090 --> 00:01:14,790 40 minutes depending on how we go we 21 00:01:20,270 --> 00:01:17,100 will throw it open for people to ask 22 00:01:22,010 --> 00:01:20,280 questions and if anyone has any 23 00:01:23,960 --> 00:01:22,020 technical issues as they're going along 24 00:01:27,350 --> 00:01:23,970 just pop it into the chat window we will 25 00:01:30,980 --> 00:01:27,360 try and deal with those as well so 26 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:30,990 having said that um Michael advanced 27 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:35,490 life the sicker context sure thank you 28 00:01:39,530 --> 00:01:37,890 Andy so I'm Michael new I'm the 29 00:01:42,230 --> 00:01:39,540 astrobiology discipline scientist NASA 30 00:01:47,030 --> 00:01:42,240 headquarters um many of you know me some 31 00:01:48,830 --> 00:01:47,040 of you don't hello um what we're trying 32 00:01:50,450 --> 00:01:48,840 to do here is start a conversation 33 00:01:52,010 --> 00:01:50,460 within our community and hopefully 34 00:01:57,069 --> 00:01:52,020 beyond the standard community of 35 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:00,170 somebody gain echo I don't know how to 36 00:02:06,170 --> 00:02:01,890 fix that I only have one mic and that's 37 00:02:09,740 --> 00:02:06,180 on my ear right now we we're not hearing 38 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:09,750 it so well I'm sorry just carry on okay 39 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:10,890 I'm sorry 40 00:02:16,309 --> 00:02:14,730 um so the astrobiology roadmap is a 41 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:16,319 document that we that the community 42 00:02:21,890 --> 00:02:19,290 produces every decade or so and it 43 00:02:24,610 --> 00:02:21,900 informs NASA about what are the open 44 00:02:27,770 --> 00:02:24,620 compelling questions in astrobiology and 45 00:02:30,500 --> 00:02:27,780 what and therefore informs what NASA 46 00:02:32,330 --> 00:02:30,510 will invest in it also informs hopefully 47 00:02:33,650 --> 00:02:32,340 the community about what the research 48 00:02:38,540 --> 00:02:33,660 they want to do and what they want to 49 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:38,550 apply to NASA to fund so that's kind of 50 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:41,610 where we're at for that on the every 51 00:02:44,990 --> 00:02:43,410 five years or so we take a look at the 52 00:02:48,020 --> 00:02:45,000 roadmap and make little tweaks and 53 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:48,030 adjustments but the big structure of the 54 00:02:51,949 --> 00:02:49,530 roadmap the overarching goals and 55 00:02:54,350 --> 00:02:51,959 objectives they don't change shouldn't 56 00:02:56,630 --> 00:02:54,360 change except every 10 years or so um 57 00:03:00,890 --> 00:02:56,640 this roadmap NASA's looking for 58 00:03:02,330 --> 00:03:00,900 something that is fairly aspirational 59 00:03:04,670 --> 00:03:02,340 and inspirational we're looking for 60 00:03:06,770 --> 00:03:04,680 something that really throws a lawn dart 61 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:06,780 way out there in the future and let's 62 00:03:11,860 --> 00:03:09,690 give us something to work for um so a 63 00:03:14,780 --> 00:03:11,870 document that lays out objectives that 64 00:03:16,610 --> 00:03:14,790 can be accomplished in what would take 65 00:03:19,100 --> 00:03:16,620 more than 10 years to accomplish is 66 00:03:20,630 --> 00:03:19,110 preferable to document that uh would lay 67 00:03:25,150 --> 00:03:20,640 out goals that we can accomplish 68 00:03:27,920 --> 00:03:25,160 relatively easily um when so uh 69 00:03:30,970 --> 00:03:27,930 evolution advanced life is the catch-all 70 00:03:33,410 --> 00:03:30,980 phrase that nASA uses to describe two 71 00:03:35,539 --> 00:03:33,420 different topics the first is the 72 00:03:37,130 --> 00:03:35,549 evolution of multicellularity so them 73 00:03:39,830 --> 00:03:37,140 once you have life and you have 74 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:39,840 unicellular life how do you go from a 75 00:03:45,020 --> 00:03:43,410 single cell living alone to an organism 76 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:45,030 that's got multiple cells that form 77 00:03:52,330 --> 00:03:48,930 tissues and and develop the second area 78 00:03:54,770 --> 00:03:52,340 weekend cat put into this category is 79 00:03:59,120 --> 00:03:54,780 macro evolutionary processes and 80 00:04:01,009 --> 00:03:59,130 especially the processes of how what 81 00:04:03,020 --> 00:04:01,019 call of things that cause and they and 82 00:04:05,390 --> 00:04:03,030 house because isn't respond to mass 83 00:04:08,750 --> 00:04:05,400 extinction events like the KT bolide 84 00:04:13,430 --> 00:04:08,760 impact uh or whatever happened at the 85 00:04:15,349 --> 00:04:13,440 thermo Triassic boundary and a bit all 86 00:04:17,259 --> 00:04:15,359 of this research is focused on trying to 87 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:17,269 understand the conditions that lead to 88 00:04:23,180 --> 00:04:20,849 aid and development of complex 89 00:04:24,310 --> 00:04:23,190 life on earth I'm so that when we go 90 00:04:26,890 --> 00:04:24,320 looking out the source 91 00:04:29,740 --> 00:04:26,900 assuming beyond we have some sense of 92 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:29,750 what we're looking for a defined where 93 00:04:38,830 --> 00:04:32,090 the odds of finding complex life you 94 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:38,840 know so that is that sort of thing the 95 00:04:42,910 --> 00:04:41,090 purpose of this meeting is to kick this 96 00:04:44,620 --> 00:04:42,920 thing off for this particular theme 97 00:04:48,370 --> 00:04:44,630 there are five themes are investigating 98 00:04:50,110 --> 00:04:48,380 and over the course of hopefully least 99 00:04:53,350 --> 00:04:50,120 this week we'll have a series of online 100 00:04:56,770 --> 00:04:53,360 discussions prompted by the discussion 101 00:05:00,370 --> 00:04:56,780 we're having today that you'll all take 102 00:05:01,750 --> 00:05:00,380 part in I hope and from those those 103 00:05:05,290 --> 00:05:01,760 discussions are going to influence the 104 00:05:07,450 --> 00:05:05,300 road map in in two ways first um the 105 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:07,460 ideas you guys come up with the open 106 00:05:11,050 --> 00:05:08,570 compelling questions are going to 107 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:11,060 influence hopefully heavily the people 108 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:13,970 who actually write the road map more 109 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:15,650 directly the people who write the road 110 00:05:22,540 --> 00:05:19,370 map will be chosen partially from active 111 00:05:24,130 --> 00:05:22,550 contributors to the discussions because 112 00:05:25,840 --> 00:05:24,140 clearly people who are active in the 113 00:05:28,030 --> 00:05:25,850 discussions have something to say and 114 00:05:30,100 --> 00:05:28,040 hopefully it's a good thing to say and 115 00:05:34,990 --> 00:05:30,110 so we'll invite them to help us write 116 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:35,000 the the roadmap so that's pretty much 117 00:05:39,910 --> 00:05:36,770 all I have if you have any questions 118 00:05:41,740 --> 00:05:39,920 about anything please ask them now I'll 119 00:05:44,620 --> 00:05:41,750 be here all day but this is intended to 120 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:44,630 be a community event so I hopefully 121 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:48,410 won't talk very much recycle manage my 122 00:05:54,190 --> 00:05:51,530 question please yes Frank for those 123 00:05:58,870 --> 00:05:54,200 people who wish to to join or people who 124 00:06:04,270 --> 00:05:58,880 are not here for this kickoff you know 125 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:04,280 what you did more to us instructions so 126 00:06:08,260 --> 00:06:06,410 that one could invite people that we 127 00:06:11,350 --> 00:06:08,270 think should be part of this to this 128 00:06:15,310 --> 00:06:11,360 conversation sure Andy are you gonna put 129 00:06:17,290 --> 00:06:15,320 that information up at the end uh in 130 00:06:19,270 --> 00:06:17,300 order to be able sorry just to be clear 131 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:19,280 Frank you're asking for people to take 132 00:06:24,340 --> 00:06:21,610 part in the discussions in the website 133 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:24,350 that's correct yes yes there may be 134 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:27,170 people that have not been contacted who 135 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:31,970 should be absolutely ok so well thing 136 00:06:36,580 --> 00:06:34,610 it's almost like he can read my mind if 137 00:06:37,820 --> 00:06:36,590 you have a look in the chat window there 138 00:06:40,820 --> 00:06:37,830 you'll see that Mike 139 00:06:44,630 --> 00:06:40,830 just put up the address of the web 140 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:44,640 socket I don't need Siri I just need 141 00:06:53,150 --> 00:06:49,890 Mike um and it's very simple go there 142 00:06:56,060 --> 00:06:53,160 it's open registration anyone can sign 143 00:06:59,120 --> 00:06:56,070 up and then there are a series of 144 00:07:01,670 --> 00:06:59,130 discussion for where we'll be picking up 145 00:07:05,450 --> 00:07:01,680 these questions and the other thing is 146 00:07:08,150 --> 00:07:05,460 mike tells me probably by tomorrow west 147 00:07:09,830 --> 00:07:08,160 coast time the video of both this 148 00:07:12,380 --> 00:07:09,840 session and the previous one will have 149 00:07:15,740 --> 00:07:12,390 been crunched and be on the website so 150 00:07:17,930 --> 00:07:15,750 if people want to actually listen and 151 00:07:23,660 --> 00:07:17,940 watch what was said then they can do 152 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:23,670 that as well so should be open to all so 153 00:07:29,900 --> 00:07:26,970 Frank just taking that as my lead-in um 154 00:07:31,730 --> 00:07:29,910 let's do some introductions who are you 155 00:07:34,970 --> 00:07:31,740 where you're from why are you interested 156 00:07:36,890 --> 00:07:34,980 in this ok so my name is Frank rose and 157 00:07:41,300 --> 00:07:36,900 so I and I'm a professor at the 158 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:41,310 University of Montana and I've been a 159 00:07:48,380 --> 00:07:44,610 nasa astrobiology researcher for a 160 00:07:50,990 --> 00:07:48,390 number of years interested in this 161 00:07:54,890 --> 00:07:51,000 particular topic as well as mechanisms 162 00:07:59,930 --> 00:07:54,900 of speciation and in our current 163 00:08:03,860 --> 00:07:59,940 iteration of our astrobiology work we 164 00:08:07,810 --> 00:08:03,870 have two parallel projects one ecoline 165 00:08:12,140 --> 00:08:07,820 looking at evolutionists metabolic 166 00:08:14,270 --> 00:08:12,150 cooperation in simple systems and in 167 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:14,280 using chlamydomonas reinhardtii I 168 00:08:21,370 --> 00:08:18,290 looking at experimental methods for 169 00:08:23,810 --> 00:08:21,380 attempting the independent evolution of 170 00:08:27,830 --> 00:08:23,820 multicellularity a trait that has 171 00:08:31,910 --> 00:08:27,840 evolved multiple times in the vulva seen 172 00:08:34,219 --> 00:08:31,920 algae of which clammy is a member so 173 00:08:37,390 --> 00:08:34,229 I've had long-standing interest in this 174 00:08:40,850 --> 00:08:37,400 really from graduate school onwards and 175 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:40,860 am grateful for the opportunity through 176 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:52,620 if there's somebody coming on after me 177 00:08:58,210 --> 00:08:56,810 Andy I think you're okay he's when my 178 00:09:03,280 --> 00:08:58,220 lips move but you can't hear anything 179 00:09:05,740 --> 00:09:03,290 I've hit the mute button that yeah I'll 180 00:09:08,710 --> 00:09:05,750 take it from there um sure what was 181 00:09:11,670 --> 00:09:08,720 happening I'm a professor of geology at 182 00:09:14,740 --> 00:09:11,680 juniata college in pennsylvania and 183 00:09:18,180 --> 00:09:14,750 miami paleontologist here my main 184 00:09:21,730 --> 00:09:18,190 interest is in macro evolution and 185 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:21,740 specifically the biotic effects of 186 00:09:25,180 --> 00:09:23,330 climate change how that affects things 187 00:09:28,630 --> 00:09:25,190 on a macro ecological and macro 188 00:09:30,610 --> 00:09:28,640 evolutionary scale I my recent research 189 00:09:32,950 --> 00:09:30,620 is supported by nasa astrobiology which 190 00:09:36,070 --> 00:09:32,960 is how i got involved in this and that 191 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:36,080 is a on the latitudinal diversity 192 00:09:46,690 --> 00:09:43,490 gradient over time okay thank you all 193 00:09:49,690 --> 00:09:46,700 right what happened prior to this 194 00:09:54,010 --> 00:09:49,700 webinar was that Frank and that and I 195 00:09:58,360 --> 00:09:54,020 got together and skip over this slide 196 00:10:03,210 --> 00:09:58,370 for a moment and we talked about what 197 00:10:06,070 --> 00:10:03,220 might be interesting questions to help 198 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:06,080 frame our discussion and the 199 00:10:11,470 --> 00:10:07,730 instructions were very much these 200 00:10:13,750 --> 00:10:11,480 questions were supposed to illuminate 201 00:10:16,150 --> 00:10:13,760 but not constrained in any way the 202 00:10:21,940 --> 00:10:16,160 discussions so what we thought would be 203 00:10:23,790 --> 00:10:21,950 interesting now is to to start moving 204 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:23,800 through some of these questions and 205 00:10:29,260 --> 00:10:27,170 invite audience thoughts as we go along 206 00:10:31,090 --> 00:10:29,270 and then towards the end we'll pick it 207 00:10:34,930 --> 00:10:31,100 up and and give the participants chance 208 00:10:37,770 --> 00:10:34,940 to to ask questions directly so if we 209 00:10:40,900 --> 00:10:37,780 have a look at the the first question um 210 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:40,910 evolutionary transitions no Frank I know 211 00:10:45,670 --> 00:10:43,730 that that you'd written this one down as 212 00:10:48,100 --> 00:10:45,680 part of the session that that you and 213 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:48,110 Matt and I were in can I start with you 214 00:10:53,680 --> 00:10:50,930 and this is obviously in the context of 215 00:10:55,300 --> 00:10:53,690 the roadmap and what is it that we 216 00:10:58,480 --> 00:10:55,310 should be thinking about over the next 217 00:11:00,120 --> 00:10:58,490 10 years vamps from this perspective to 218 00:11:04,770 --> 00:11:00,130 start with 219 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:04,780 so when I when I wrote the questions or 220 00:11:13,830 --> 00:11:08,410 in this particular question my thoughts 221 00:11:16,130 --> 00:11:13,840 were being guided by actually buy a book 222 00:11:19,890 --> 00:11:16,140 that came out a number of years ago 223 00:11:23,100 --> 00:11:19,900 which was actually called the major 224 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:23,110 transitions in evolution and it was a it 225 00:11:31,260 --> 00:11:26,290 was a piece by john maynard smith and a 226 00:11:35,940 --> 00:11:31,270 oz oz mary and they identified a number 227 00:11:39,180 --> 00:11:35,950 of major evolutionary transitions some 228 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:39,190 of which may fall more under the purview 229 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:42,090 of the prebiotic folks so for example 230 00:11:51,210 --> 00:11:47,290 they identified the one transition being 231 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:51,220 that from populations of molecules for 232 00:11:57,330 --> 00:11:53,410 replicating molecules to populations of 233 00:12:01,970 --> 00:11:57,340 molecules in compartments the evolution 234 00:12:06,390 --> 00:12:01,980 of chromosomes the evolution of DNA as 235 00:12:10,370 --> 00:12:06,400 genes what I was thinking about was that 236 00:12:13,290 --> 00:12:10,380 those things fell to the other group and 237 00:12:15,980 --> 00:12:13,300 what evolutionary transitions I had 238 00:12:19,350 --> 00:12:15,990 envisioned and certainly the group is 239 00:12:21,900 --> 00:12:19,360 unconstrained I guess and it's and it's 240 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:21,910 what it can throw out there I was 241 00:12:28,980 --> 00:12:24,210 thinking about those transitions like 242 00:12:32,570 --> 00:12:28,990 though that from prokaryote to eukaryote 243 00:12:35,810 --> 00:12:32,580 and implicit in that the acquisition of 244 00:12:39,570 --> 00:12:35,820 organelles which almost certainly were 245 00:12:44,060 --> 00:12:39,580 independent cellular entities and 246 00:12:47,940 --> 00:12:44,070 resolving the conflicts that that arose 247 00:12:50,310 --> 00:12:47,950 in in the formation of organelles and 248 00:12:54,030 --> 00:12:50,320 the formation of what we recognize as 249 00:12:56,850 --> 00:12:54,040 you carry us I would think also thinking 250 00:13:00,360 --> 00:12:56,860 about transitions from a sexual clones 251 00:13:05,550 --> 00:13:00,370 to to sexual populations and the 252 00:13:07,590 --> 00:13:05,560 evolution of sex not just in terms of 253 00:13:09,990 --> 00:13:07,600 lateral gene transfer which is 254 00:13:12,519 --> 00:13:10,000 unidirectional in the prokaryotic world 255 00:13:16,179 --> 00:13:12,529 but bi-directional as it is 256 00:13:20,139 --> 00:13:16,189 amongst most eukaryotes likewise I was 257 00:13:24,309 --> 00:13:20,149 thinking of a third transition namely 258 00:13:27,009 --> 00:13:24,319 that from unicellular organisms most 259 00:13:32,530 --> 00:13:27,019 likely protists of some variety way back 260 00:13:37,379 --> 00:13:32,540 when to multicellular organisms but I 261 00:13:39,610 --> 00:13:37,389 was also thinking about higher order 262 00:13:42,660 --> 00:13:39,620 evolutionary transitions which actually 263 00:13:45,639 --> 00:13:42,670 could have important implications for 264 00:13:49,179 --> 00:13:45,649 the evolution of complex life elsewhere 265 00:13:51,879 --> 00:13:49,189 in the universe namely the the 266 00:13:56,410 --> 00:13:51,889 transition that has occurred from that 267 00:13:59,619 --> 00:13:56,420 of solitary multicellular individuals to 268 00:14:02,980 --> 00:13:59,629 that of colonies in other words the 269 00:14:07,869 --> 00:14:02,990 evolution of eusociality actually falls 270 00:14:12,790 --> 00:14:07,879 within these ETS that I have that I was 271 00:14:14,850 --> 00:14:12,800 thinking about so for example the youth 272 00:14:18,309 --> 00:14:14,860 sociality we have the formation of 273 00:14:20,530 --> 00:14:18,319 castes where certain individuals forego 274 00:14:23,590 --> 00:14:20,540 reproduction in the same way that 275 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:23,600 somatic cells for go reproduction and 276 00:14:30,879 --> 00:14:28,490 entrust that to to the germline and then 277 00:14:36,629 --> 00:14:30,889 of course you know other transition than 278 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:40,600 identified were those in primate 279 00:14:48,069 --> 00:14:45,290 societies which evolved elaborate 280 00:14:52,780 --> 00:14:48,079 communication systems languages which 281 00:14:56,290 --> 00:14:52,790 enabled memes so I was in summary then 282 00:14:59,710 --> 00:14:56,300 sort of leading the the prebiotic of a 283 00:15:01,449 --> 00:14:59,720 molecular evolution of replicating 284 00:15:04,389 --> 00:15:01,459 molecules and the formation of 285 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:04,399 compartments evolution of chromosomes to 286 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:07,490 our colleagues concerned with prebiotic 287 00:15:13,650 --> 00:15:10,970 evolution and evolutionary transitions 288 00:15:17,619 --> 00:15:13,660 that I had envisioned for this group 289 00:15:20,980 --> 00:15:17,629 were those that are basically to 290 00:15:23,199 --> 00:15:20,990 eukaryotes evolution of sex evolution of 291 00:15:25,010 --> 00:15:23,209 multicellularity evolution of 292 00:15:29,780 --> 00:15:25,020 eusociality and 293 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:29,790 evolution of language if math elite pack 294 00:15:36,290 --> 00:15:33,810 onto the end of that you know the first 295 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:36,300 thing I think is that as far as so far 296 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:39,570 as I know there is not a group of major 297 00:15:43,250 --> 00:15:41,250 evolutionary transitions that have kind 298 00:15:45,590 --> 00:15:43,260 of been defined across the field I think 299 00:15:47,510 --> 00:15:45,600 if people put together their own list 300 00:15:49,310 --> 00:15:47,520 they would they would have some in 301 00:15:51,890 --> 00:15:49,320 common but it would also have a lot of 302 00:15:53,690 --> 00:15:51,900 these events that were not uncommon and 303 00:15:55,580 --> 00:15:53,700 so I think that you know the field we 304 00:15:57,890 --> 00:15:55,590 don't necessarily even have a common 305 00:16:00,470 --> 00:15:57,900 understanding of what the major 306 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:00,480 transitions are or really even what what 307 00:16:07,190 --> 00:16:03,570 major means in that respect there are 308 00:16:08,570 --> 00:16:07,200 things I think are not as important in 309 00:16:10,820 --> 00:16:08,580 terms you know if I was making a list of 310 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:10,830 the major events i put the same things 311 00:16:15,890 --> 00:16:12,810 on there that Frank put you know 312 00:16:19,010 --> 00:16:15,900 evolution of multicellularity I probably 313 00:16:22,790 --> 00:16:19,020 also put things like evolution of 314 00:16:24,700 --> 00:16:22,800 bilateral symmetry or ahead you know 315 00:16:27,860 --> 00:16:24,710 having a head something like that 316 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:27,870 further back in time the evolution of 317 00:16:35,180 --> 00:16:32,250 respiration you know of oxygen breathers 318 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:35,190 and things like that but I'd also 319 00:16:40,570 --> 00:16:37,290 probably put things that are less maybe 320 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:40,580 monumental in terms of the overall 321 00:16:45,410 --> 00:16:43,290 history of life on Earth but which are 322 00:16:48,140 --> 00:16:45,420 of kind of particular importance to 323 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:48,150 humans things like evolving an internal 324 00:16:56,890 --> 00:16:53,610 skeleton vertebrates evolving things 325 00:17:00,890 --> 00:16:56,900 like you know venture the amniotic egg 326 00:17:02,630 --> 00:17:00,900 then eventually you know live earth and 327 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:02,640 then I might also add in things like 328 00:17:08,210 --> 00:17:05,610 mass extinctions which the grand scheme 329 00:17:10,130 --> 00:17:08,220 of things really just reshuffle that the 330 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:10,140 kinds of complex life that are around 331 00:17:16,220 --> 00:17:12,530 and it changes what's dominated at times 332 00:17:19,070 --> 00:17:16,230 without really creating any new new kind 333 00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:19,080 of life in the sense that moving from 334 00:17:23,540 --> 00:17:21,089 unicellular to multicellular did but 335 00:17:25,190 --> 00:17:23,550 which you know nonetheless you know 336 00:17:28,430 --> 00:17:25,200 things like the KT you know radically 337 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:28,440 altered what kind of life are around and 338 00:17:31,970 --> 00:17:30,330 maybe even those effects are even 339 00:17:34,250 --> 00:17:31,980 continuing today I think some papers 340 00:17:36,980 --> 00:17:34,260 recently has come out showing that you 341 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:36,990 can still sort of observe the effects of 342 00:17:41,900 --> 00:17:38,730 the KT and things like the 343 00:17:43,159 --> 00:17:41,910 PETM in the modern biota so I probably 344 00:17:49,789 --> 00:17:43,169 put those in that in that same category 345 00:17:53,330 --> 00:17:49,799 of major evolutionary transitions great 346 00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:53,340 you're adding to this basically to sign 347 00:17:58,990 --> 00:17:55,370 of kind of summarize major metabolic 348 00:18:02,120 --> 00:17:59,000 innovations major architectural 349 00:18:07,039 --> 00:18:02,130 innovations you know within clades and 350 00:18:11,570 --> 00:18:07,049 then evolution of diverse developmental 351 00:18:16,070 --> 00:18:11,580 strategies as well as the the you know 352 00:18:20,620 --> 00:18:16,080 these challenges and opportunities of a 353 00:18:27,070 --> 00:18:24,890 but let me just ask you that fascinating 354 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:27,080 opening how would one go about 355 00:18:34,159 --> 00:18:32,010 researching this because I love the 356 00:18:36,110 --> 00:18:34,169 thought of spending NASA's money and 357 00:18:39,409 --> 00:18:36,120 let's assume you were given large 358 00:18:42,020 --> 00:18:39,419 quantities of hit what would it mean in 359 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:42,030 terms of a research roadmap what what 360 00:18:49,700 --> 00:18:47,010 would you be looking to do I've always 361 00:18:53,539 --> 00:18:49,710 been struck by the fact of how much of 362 00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:53,549 that research is discovery-based how 363 00:18:58,220 --> 00:18:56,130 much it's really relying on on the 364 00:19:00,710 --> 00:18:58,230 generation of new data not simply the 365 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:00,720 analysis of existing data that's not to 366 00:19:05,060 --> 00:19:02,490 say that you know analysis of existing 367 00:19:09,289 --> 00:19:05,070 data is not important I do that a lot 368 00:19:11,590 --> 00:19:09,299 but I'm just constantly surprised by how 369 00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:11,600 much we we don't know and I think what 370 00:19:15,530 --> 00:19:13,710 this isn't really an experimental 371 00:19:20,210 --> 00:19:15,540 approach but more discovery funding is 372 00:19:23,570 --> 00:19:20,220 really important I think in that and 373 00:19:26,390 --> 00:19:23,580 Frank what would you do well I mean you 374 00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:26,400 know I'm an obsessive experimentalist 375 00:19:36,530 --> 00:19:32,370 and so so in my group we're trying to 376 00:19:39,620 --> 00:19:36,540 replicate using extant forms some of the 377 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:39,630 let me just narrowly define and say 378 00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:42,410 these Maynard Smith slashes off Mary 379 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:46,130 transitions like that of evolution of 380 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:49,650 organelles evolution of multicellularity 381 00:19:56,660 --> 00:19:52,410 and cooperating systems but 382 00:20:00,140 --> 00:19:56,670 you know I would concur with Matt's 383 00:20:03,710 --> 00:20:00,150 remarks and add that some of those 384 00:20:06,650 --> 00:20:03,720 discoveries at least within with respect 385 00:20:10,010 --> 00:20:06,660 to sault ste innovations in metabolism 386 00:20:13,100 --> 00:20:10,020 and an architecture and developmental 387 00:20:17,180 --> 00:20:13,110 program you know some of these major 388 00:20:22,250 --> 00:20:17,190 innovations are there essentially how 389 00:20:25,010 --> 00:20:22,260 they're entombed within the within the 390 00:20:30,380 --> 00:20:25,020 sequence record that is to say the tree 391 00:20:33,710 --> 00:20:30,390 of life and the the code which basically 392 00:20:37,780 --> 00:20:33,720 gives us the tips of those branches 393 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:37,790 today contains a lot of information that 394 00:20:45,250 --> 00:20:41,490 that would eliminate these questions 395 00:20:51,740 --> 00:20:45,260 about these these major anatomical and 396 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:51,750 developmental innovations don't add one 397 00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:54,930 thing I this comment from Eric Smith 398 00:20:59,930 --> 00:20:57,330 about he points out that the major 399 00:21:01,340 --> 00:20:59,940 transitions here defined as defined are 400 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:01,350 connected to the rise of atmospheric 401 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:04,290 oxygen I think this important point that 402 00:21:08,930 --> 00:21:07,290 some evolutionary innovations are there 403 00:21:10,250 --> 00:21:08,940 they're hierarchically structured in the 404 00:21:12,140 --> 00:21:10,260 sense that some of them allow new 405 00:21:14,060 --> 00:21:12,150 evolutionary innovation and I think that 406 00:21:20,780 --> 00:21:14,070 kind of effect sort of hierarchy is an 407 00:21:23,420 --> 00:21:20,790 important area to explore absolutely can 408 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:23,430 we also look at John John Cage well 409 00:21:29,660 --> 00:21:26,850 actually John Cage the second he's 410 00:21:36,590 --> 00:21:29,670 question which is which is about the 411 00:21:38,570 --> 00:21:36,600 thermal vents and Europa I don't know 412 00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:38,580 enough about it pacifically to comment 413 00:21:47,930 --> 00:21:44,370 frankly and I am I must join in with you 414 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:47,940 there and if I guess there are a number 415 00:21:56,350 --> 00:21:50,250 of people who have joined since your 416 00:21:59,600 --> 00:21:56,360 initial introduction and Ian so maybe 417 00:22:03,320 --> 00:21:59,610 just indicate to them at approximately 418 00:22:05,330 --> 00:22:03,330 what time in this discussion people can 419 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:05,340 come online and though 420 00:22:11,070 --> 00:22:08,250 regrettably invisible they will be 421 00:22:15,270 --> 00:22:11,080 certainly audible if I understand 422 00:22:18,870 --> 00:22:15,280 correctly yeah right and the answer is 423 00:22:21,060 --> 00:22:18,880 probably in about 20 minutes although it 424 00:22:25,860 --> 00:22:21,070 all depends on just how fascinating your 425 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:25,870 conversation is ok let's move on and 426 00:22:33,540 --> 00:22:29,850 look at the comparative methods and 427 00:22:40,980 --> 00:22:33,550 we'll park John Cage question under hmm 428 00:22:43,980 --> 00:22:40,990 we need to do research on Matt Preston 429 00:22:46,140 --> 00:22:43,990 yeah okay all right so we kind of 430 00:22:48,510 --> 00:22:46,150 touched on this a moment ago I just 431 00:22:50,610 --> 00:22:48,520 noticed Yuri Gorby signing in whom I 432 00:22:55,170 --> 00:22:50,620 have not seen in a long time so although 433 00:22:59,060 --> 00:22:55,180 I don't see your yuriai I see your your 434 00:23:02,220 --> 00:22:59,070 footprint here so we talked about 435 00:23:07,970 --> 00:23:02,230 information about information Airy 436 00:23:13,070 --> 00:23:07,980 transitions that are embedded within the 437 00:23:16,230 --> 00:23:13,080 sequence data in the tree of life and so 438 00:23:18,900 --> 00:23:16,240 that is kind of what I was thinking 439 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:18,910 about when I wrote the questions that we 440 00:23:23,940 --> 00:23:21,850 could seek or use comparative methods to 441 00:23:27,300 --> 00:23:23,950 draw strong inferences about mechanisms 442 00:23:29,700 --> 00:23:27,310 driving evolutionary transitions and to 443 00:23:33,570 --> 00:23:29,710 the extent that you know our molecular 444 00:23:38,060 --> 00:23:33,580 clock data can be roughly calibrated to 445 00:23:42,500 --> 00:23:38,070 the known events in the fossil record 446 00:23:46,620 --> 00:23:42,510 then we can sort of you know Rose 447 00:23:49,170 --> 00:23:46,630 retrospectively examined those the 448 00:23:53,330 --> 00:23:49,180 succession of those innovations in 449 00:23:56,550 --> 00:23:53,340 different groups over time in terms of 450 00:24:00,900 --> 00:23:56,560 experimental methods for the analysis of 451 00:24:04,860 --> 00:24:00,910 evolutionary transitions again I'm 452 00:24:07,590 --> 00:24:04,870 really thinking about taking say extant 453 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:07,600 groups that have no history say for 454 00:24:12,650 --> 00:24:08,890 example in the transition from 455 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:12,660 unicellular t2 multicellularity perhaps 456 00:24:18,749 --> 00:24:16,770 a number of you and the community read 457 00:24:21,539 --> 00:24:18,759 interesting paper out 458 00:24:23,939 --> 00:24:21,549 of Mike travisano slab at the University 459 00:24:26,810 --> 00:24:23,949 of Minnesota spearheaded by will 460 00:24:29,729 --> 00:24:26,820 Ratcliffe on the evolution of 461 00:24:31,619 --> 00:24:29,739 multicellularity in yeast and that's a 462 00:24:35,129 --> 00:24:31,629 very elegant piece of work which which 463 00:24:38,219 --> 00:24:35,139 has been criticized in some quarters by 464 00:24:41,789 --> 00:24:38,229 using an organism that has perhaps an 465 00:24:43,259 --> 00:24:41,799 ancestry of multicellularity and looking 466 00:24:45,719 --> 00:24:43,269 at a derived trade but there are plenty 467 00:24:47,879 --> 00:24:45,729 of organisms that are bona fide 468 00:24:52,889 --> 00:24:47,889 unicellular organisms on which we could 469 00:24:55,529 --> 00:24:52,899 do experimental evolution so in terms of 470 00:25:01,349 --> 00:24:55,539 methodology that that's what I had in 471 00:25:03,629 --> 00:25:01,359 mind but other people may have equally 472 00:25:07,769 --> 00:25:03,639 good or better ideas on this point it's 473 00:25:10,229 --> 00:25:07,779 matt how about how about you i think 474 00:25:11,609 --> 00:25:10,239 that uh yes certainly when I that that's 475 00:25:13,559 --> 00:25:11,619 the same understanding i have an 476 00:25:15,239 --> 00:25:13,569 experimental methods the major 477 00:25:19,499 --> 00:25:15,249 evolutionary did let me just jump in 478 00:25:21,539 --> 00:25:19,509 today back comparative I I really wanted 479 00:25:24,629 --> 00:25:21,549 to emphasize not just because you're a 480 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:24,639 paleontologist but I wanted to emphasize 481 00:25:31,799 --> 00:25:27,129 that you know the the tree of life data 482 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:31,809 you know it absolutely has to be mapped 483 00:25:38,039 --> 00:25:34,690 onto the the paleontological records 484 00:25:40,829 --> 00:25:38,049 though that's the the evolutionary 485 00:25:42,539 --> 00:25:40,839 transition that you know seems most 486 00:25:44,999 --> 00:25:42,549 important these days is the the one 487 00:25:48,749 --> 00:25:45,009 related to anthropogenic climate change 488 00:25:50,789 --> 00:25:48,759 and I've seen a number of interesting 489 00:25:53,039 --> 00:25:50,799 you know studies related to experimental 490 00:25:54,959 --> 00:25:53,049 manipulation of environments that mimic 491 00:25:56,819 --> 00:25:54,969 potential you know future conditions 492 00:26:00,299 --> 00:25:56,829 under under various scenarios of climate 493 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:00,309 change and what happens to those 494 00:26:04,319 --> 00:26:03,129 organisms in those circumstances I you 495 00:26:06,689 --> 00:26:04,329 know I think that we have a lot to learn 496 00:26:08,699 --> 00:26:06,699 from studies like that and then of 497 00:26:11,879 --> 00:26:08,709 course there are you know plenty of 498 00:26:13,349 --> 00:26:11,889 analog environments in the past that in 499 00:26:15,449 --> 00:26:13,359 which earth history function is this 500 00:26:17,339 --> 00:26:15,459 natural laboratory that is manipulated 501 00:26:19,799 --> 00:26:17,349 the earth for us and then we can go back 502 00:26:22,109 --> 00:26:19,809 and look at the for example selectivity 503 00:26:24,689 --> 00:26:22,119 of extinctions or preferential 504 00:26:29,039 --> 00:26:24,699 origination after an extinction and see 505 00:26:30,930 --> 00:26:29,049 how those environmental events altered 506 00:26:32,169 --> 00:26:30,940 the the biota under conditions that we 507 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:32,179 expect to be to be 508 00:26:41,859 --> 00:26:34,970 today I think those would be really 509 00:26:45,659 --> 00:26:41,869 informative studies to do before we move 510 00:26:48,759 --> 00:26:45,669 on I wanted to pick up Sean's question 511 00:26:51,129 --> 00:26:48,769 which you'll see in the live notes there 512 00:26:53,980 --> 00:26:51,139 I'm going to use it to sort of bridge 513 00:26:56,919 --> 00:26:53,990 the English evolutionary transitions and 514 00:26:58,779 --> 00:26:56,929 comparative methods so this is the one 515 00:27:01,899 --> 00:26:58,789 about the the presence or absence of o2 516 00:27:04,690 --> 00:27:01,909 and the possibilities of advanced life 517 00:27:06,580 --> 00:27:04,700 which obviously assurances for people 518 00:27:08,529 --> 00:27:06,590 interested in exoplanet missions would 519 00:27:13,149 --> 00:27:08,539 be very exciting what what are your 520 00:27:18,850 --> 00:27:13,159 thoughts about that in terms of the 521 00:27:20,769 --> 00:27:18,860 evolution of advanced life well I'll say 522 00:27:25,989 --> 00:27:20,779 that certainly we have life that's not 523 00:27:30,279 --> 00:27:25,999 that does not require oxygen but from my 524 00:27:32,379 --> 00:27:30,289 perspective as a multicellular kind of 525 00:27:34,570 --> 00:27:32,389 guy all the interesting stuff is 526 00:27:37,570 --> 00:27:34,580 happening on the oxygen breathers sorry 527 00:27:42,279 --> 00:27:37,580 Frank either you are going to anaerobic 528 00:27:47,799 --> 00:27:42,289 bacteria donya i do but i have worked on 529 00:27:54,180 --> 00:27:47,809 anaerobes I mean it's what's interesting 530 00:28:01,330 --> 00:27:58,989 electron acceptor tower say in 531 00:28:06,460 --> 00:28:01,340 sedimentary environments and there are 532 00:28:11,259 --> 00:28:06,470 obviously oxygen is is the king however 533 00:28:14,499 --> 00:28:11,269 you can get down to pretty good 534 00:28:20,399 --> 00:28:14,509 respiratory mechanisms that are based on 535 00:28:22,690 --> 00:28:20,409 on iron reduction or you know 536 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:22,700 alternative electronic scepters that 537 00:28:30,489 --> 00:28:27,129 that are pretty energy efficient and 538 00:28:34,139 --> 00:28:30,499 while to my knowledge and maybe yeah 539 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:34,149 maybe yuri can chime in on this point 540 00:28:41,879 --> 00:28:38,210 when we open it up for discussion but to 541 00:28:46,010 --> 00:28:41,889 while clearly there are cyanobacteria 542 00:28:49,460 --> 00:28:46,020 that exhibit the hallmark 543 00:28:52,180 --> 00:28:49,470 teachers of multicellular differentiated 544 00:28:56,930 --> 00:28:52,190 organisms to the best of my knowledge 545 00:29:00,230 --> 00:28:56,940 there are no anaerobes that that exhibit 546 00:29:02,570 --> 00:29:00,240 those those traits so I may just be 547 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:02,580 exhibiting my ignorance of the 548 00:29:07,610 --> 00:29:05,490 literature the recent literature but I'd 549 00:29:11,030 --> 00:29:07,620 like to hear more on that from the 550 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:11,040 community and you know really well are 551 00:29:17,930 --> 00:29:15,090 there any intrinsic limitations to the 552 00:29:25,630 --> 00:29:17,940 evolution of more quote unquote complex 553 00:29:28,610 --> 00:29:25,640 forms in in a toxic environment okay 554 00:29:30,830 --> 00:29:28,620 that's so those of us watching the 555 00:29:33,170 --> 00:29:30,840 Chapman you can see this has produced a 556 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:33,180 little flurry of comments there which we 557 00:29:39,770 --> 00:29:35,610 will come back to I just wanted to pick 558 00:29:42,980 --> 00:29:39,780 up one thought though which is that it's 559 00:29:45,620 --> 00:29:42,990 one or two people had been asking these 560 00:29:48,230 --> 00:29:45,630 are sort of arbitrary distinctions we're 561 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:48,240 making between prebiotic and advanced 562 00:29:53,570 --> 00:29:50,970 life and ultimately when we get to the 563 00:29:56,330 --> 00:29:53,580 road mapping workshop will be free to 564 00:29:58,640 --> 00:29:56,340 structure it any way we want it's just 565 00:30:01,250 --> 00:29:58,650 we sort of had to give titles so please 566 00:30:07,580 --> 00:30:01,260 don't feel that the decisions have 567 00:30:11,300 --> 00:30:07,590 already been made okay so let's move on 568 00:30:13,940 --> 00:30:11,310 to the power i want to add because i 569 00:30:16,940 --> 00:30:13,950 requested a comment from uri and one 570 00:30:20,770 --> 00:30:16,950 came very quickly and he made the the 571 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:20,780 important point that there are anaerobic 572 00:30:29,450 --> 00:30:25,970 biofilms and of course biofilms are our 573 00:30:32,300 --> 00:30:29,460 multi cellular structure although it's I 574 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:32,310 think an area for research and open 575 00:30:37,510 --> 00:30:34,250 discussion as to the degree of 576 00:30:44,270 --> 00:30:37,520 cooperativity and predictability of 577 00:30:50,620 --> 00:30:44,280 their assembly but clear and important 578 00:30:54,190 --> 00:30:50,630 point babe great thank you um all right 579 00:30:57,230 --> 00:30:54,200 single most important research problem 580 00:30:58,560 --> 00:30:57,240 what are your thoughts on where we might 581 00:31:02,759 --> 00:30:58,570 focus 582 00:31:04,710 --> 00:31:02,769 sources and effort for identifying the 583 00:31:12,930 --> 00:31:04,720 transition from simple to complex life 584 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:12,940 forms but I'll be very brief here and 585 00:31:17,789 --> 00:31:15,610 maybe Matt can chime in this kind of 586 00:31:21,139 --> 00:31:17,799 follows on from the previous discussion 587 00:31:25,740 --> 00:31:21,149 as well as all the chatter here about 588 00:31:27,570 --> 00:31:25,750 about oxygen and it to me whether 589 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:27,580 whether you're it's particularly if 590 00:31:32,909 --> 00:31:30,490 you're wanting to pursue an experimental 591 00:31:35,369 --> 00:31:32,919 approach to some of these questions you 592 00:31:38,220 --> 00:31:35,379 know finding the appropriate set of 593 00:31:41,999 --> 00:31:38,230 model organisms and the appropriate 594 00:31:44,539 --> 00:31:42,009 analog environment for performing these 595 00:31:47,369 --> 00:31:44,549 experiments seems to be of paramount 596 00:31:50,999 --> 00:31:47,379 importance and I would say that the 597 00:31:54,930 --> 00:31:51,009 various transitions that we have 598 00:31:57,619 --> 00:31:54,940 described that non-exhaustive list I 599 00:32:01,889 --> 00:31:57,629 know each of those transitions calls 600 00:32:07,499 --> 00:32:01,899 perhaps for a different model organism 601 00:32:09,690 --> 00:32:07,509 in a different analog environment for me 602 00:32:13,019 --> 00:32:09,700 I think that the most important research 603 00:32:16,049 --> 00:32:13,029 problem is really just a general just 604 00:32:20,220 --> 00:32:16,059 how resilient our Earth's ecosystems to 605 00:32:23,310 --> 00:32:20,230 environmental change what is the the 606 00:32:25,590 --> 00:32:23,320 rate and the and the length of time that 607 00:32:28,289 --> 00:32:25,600 a perturbation is applied how does that 608 00:32:29,999 --> 00:32:28,299 affect the outcome what what sort of 609 00:32:32,009 --> 00:32:30,009 organisms are better able to withstand 610 00:32:36,690 --> 00:32:32,019 environmental perturbations of whatever 611 00:32:41,970 --> 00:32:36,700 sort which ones are most at risk how do 612 00:32:43,710 --> 00:32:41,980 these structure the biosphere how is it 613 00:32:45,899 --> 00:32:43,720 affecting ecosystem functioning 614 00:32:48,060 --> 00:32:45,909 including things like nutrient cycling 615 00:32:51,539 --> 00:32:48,070 and that in the aftermath of the 616 00:32:54,499 --> 00:32:51,549 environmental perturbations you know how 617 00:32:57,899 --> 00:32:54,509 are different life history strategies 618 00:33:01,110 --> 00:32:57,909 helpful or harmful in getting organisms 619 00:33:05,460 --> 00:33:01,120 through those events anything I think 620 00:33:08,340 --> 00:33:05,470 around ecosystem resiliency is is an 621 00:33:11,910 --> 00:33:08,350 online you know the most paying for your 622 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:14,820 I have to admit just picking up the chat 623 00:33:18,750 --> 00:33:16,210 window for a moment I do like the idea 624 00:33:21,330 --> 00:33:18,760 of one attempting to avoid being 625 00:33:25,050 --> 00:33:21,340 poisoned by the concept of oxygen as 626 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:25,060 king to suffer oxy centric view of the 627 00:33:31,770 --> 00:33:28,690 last all right now I know one or two 628 00:33:34,620 --> 00:33:31,780 people have have jumped forward to this 629 00:33:38,490 --> 00:33:34,630 point already but let's have a look at 630 00:33:41,460 --> 00:33:38,500 sort of multicellularity and the super 631 00:33:44,010 --> 00:33:41,470 organisms and EO wilson and the rest 632 00:33:45,900 --> 00:33:44,020 when what are our thoughts around this 633 00:33:48,510 --> 00:33:45,910 where does it fit within any future 634 00:33:55,730 --> 00:33:48,520 roadmap what should we be thinking about 635 00:34:03,260 --> 00:33:55,740 here well when I put that down last week 636 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:03,270 you know i think matt has i think wisely 637 00:34:12,150 --> 00:34:07,810 emphasized the sort of abiotic context 638 00:34:15,890 --> 00:34:12,160 in which these biological transitions 639 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:15,900 occur and sort of biotic constraints or 640 00:34:23,190 --> 00:34:19,210 opportunity generators for advancements 641 00:34:27,300 --> 00:34:23,200 in the complexity of life the wording of 642 00:34:30,180 --> 00:34:27,310 this the wording of this last point on 643 00:34:32,970 --> 00:34:30,190 the on the PowerPoint slot is sort of 644 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:32,980 explicitly population genetic and so 645 00:34:37,770 --> 00:34:35,290 what I was thinking of units and 646 00:34:42,180 --> 00:34:37,780 selection changing that is to say I'm 647 00:34:44,970 --> 00:34:42,190 thinking about you know is his selection 648 00:34:50,669 --> 00:34:44,980 focus you know on a molecule than is it 649 00:34:54,900 --> 00:34:50,679 focused on a cell and how our conflicts 650 00:34:56,850 --> 00:34:54,910 resolved between entities within the 651 00:35:00,150 --> 00:34:56,860 cell within the various plastids and 652 00:35:05,730 --> 00:35:00,160 then the nuclear genes and then on up 653 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:05,740 the ladder even up to say cooperating 654 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:08,170 metabolic systems like some of the 655 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:10,810 people are talking about in the in the 656 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:13,450 open chat you know is the unit of 657 00:35:19,050 --> 00:35:17,170 selection you know an interconnected 658 00:35:22,050 --> 00:35:19,060 biofilm or does the immunity of 659 00:35:25,050 --> 00:35:22,060 selection remain focused on a particular 660 00:35:30,390 --> 00:35:25,060 cell or even a group of cell 661 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:30,400 you know within a biofilm so that that 662 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:32,170 that's kind of what I was thinking about 663 00:35:43,350 --> 00:35:40,890 and so Matt want to chime in yeah i 664 00:35:46,350 --> 00:35:43,360 agree i think especially the unit of 665 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:46,360 selection is is important in just 666 00:35:51,390 --> 00:35:48,130 understanding functionally how things 667 00:35:56,130 --> 00:35:51,400 are going to be able to adapt or or not 668 00:35:59,130 --> 00:35:56,140 to any sort of future change so i think 669 00:36:01,310 --> 00:35:59,140 that's important I have to confess I I 670 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:01,320 don't actually follow the EO wilson 671 00:36:08,610 --> 00:36:06,490 superorganism thread that that carefully 672 00:36:11,270 --> 00:36:08,620 anymore but certainly the units of 673 00:36:13,620 --> 00:36:11,280 selection have been important in 674 00:36:15,570 --> 00:36:13,630 paleontology in evolutionary biology for 675 00:36:19,220 --> 00:36:15,580 a long time and that certainly will 676 00:36:22,980 --> 00:36:19,230 continue to be I I guess I've always 677 00:36:24,870 --> 00:36:22,990 sort of been impressed by the by how 678 00:36:30,380 --> 00:36:24,880 little we still know about really 679 00:36:32,490 --> 00:36:30,390 fundamental things about evolution like 680 00:36:34,410 --> 00:36:32,500 you know I don't know how far we've 681 00:36:35,790 --> 00:36:34,420 actually come since G Evelyn Hutchinson 682 00:36:38,550 --> 00:36:35,800 ask me why there are so many kinds of 683 00:36:40,170 --> 00:36:38,560 animals I'm not sure we actually even 684 00:36:44,700 --> 00:36:40,180 still know why there are so many kinds 685 00:36:48,090 --> 00:36:44,710 of animals and and that is that is a 686 00:36:49,830 --> 00:36:48,100 larger an overarching question to the 687 00:36:56,910 --> 00:36:49,840 units of selection question I think is 688 00:37:00,750 --> 00:36:56,920 important work absolutely all right um 689 00:37:03,030 --> 00:37:00,760 well at this point given the amount of 690 00:37:04,890 --> 00:37:03,040 chat in our chat window so our 691 00:37:09,090 --> 00:37:04,900 afternoons are a good time for chatting 692 00:37:12,870 --> 00:37:09,100 on this um let me go up into the 693 00:37:14,340 --> 00:37:12,880 participants know early i can see that 694 00:37:17,670 --> 00:37:14,350 you had your hand up for a while and 695 00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:17,680 we've also put your question into the 696 00:37:23,820 --> 00:37:21,730 live note do you want to expand on that 697 00:37:26,310 --> 00:37:23,830 at all basically you would you like to 698 00:37:29,250 --> 00:37:26,320 talk or you just want to give a response 699 00:37:34,810 --> 00:37:29,260 to that if you want to talk the star six 700 00:37:38,980 --> 00:37:34,820 to open your mic no that sounds hope 701 00:37:42,820 --> 00:37:38,990 book hello can you hear me know yes we 702 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:42,830 can okay sorry because I had to put the 703 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:44,890 phone down I didn't hear part of your 704 00:37:51,910 --> 00:37:49,850 your question so I think part of the 705 00:37:54,970 --> 00:37:51,920 reason why my end up is because I'm 706 00:37:57,010 --> 00:37:54,980 unfamiliar with this wisdom and but I 707 00:38:01,030 --> 00:37:57,020 think I still was thinking in terms of 708 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:01,040 evolutionary transition that we could 709 00:38:07,210 --> 00:38:03,970 see them may be very generous 710 00:38:09,190 --> 00:38:07,220 specialization of molecules that may be 711 00:38:11,260 --> 00:38:09,200 in many respects with start with 712 00:38:13,450 --> 00:38:11,270 molecules that are generalists in many 713 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:13,460 different ways and then they specialize 714 00:38:17,860 --> 00:38:16,010 themselves not only as DNA for genome 715 00:38:20,470 --> 00:38:17,870 and protein as major catalyst but also 716 00:38:22,690 --> 00:38:20,480 as membrane proteins that main able 717 00:38:25,380 --> 00:38:22,700 multicellularity and to get 718 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:25,390 self-cleaning together so that we have 719 00:38:31,990 --> 00:38:29,330 specialization of molecules and that may 720 00:38:35,290 --> 00:38:32,000 be a focus on molecular evolution and 721 00:38:36,340 --> 00:38:35,300 less on the phenotype may give us more 722 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:36,350 insight on the major evolutionary 723 00:38:43,510 --> 00:38:41,690 transition I still tend to think that a 724 00:38:47,290 --> 00:38:43,520 unit of selection is the individual I 725 00:38:50,190 --> 00:38:47,300 know there's obviously that's a you know 726 00:38:52,390 --> 00:38:50,200 heresy in some quarters but or 727 00:38:54,670 --> 00:38:52,400 traditionalist anyway but in that sense 728 00:38:56,260 --> 00:38:54,680 you know I think you know looking at the 729 00:38:57,820 --> 00:38:56,270 individual is that the package in which 730 00:39:01,780 --> 00:38:57,830 all these molecular things are happening 731 00:39:04,740 --> 00:39:01,790 is is a is important but but I agree 732 00:39:07,210 --> 00:39:04,750 that you know thinking of things sort of 733 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:07,220 increasing hierarchically ordered levels 734 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:11,570 of complexity is useful so in that sense 735 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:14,450 for example we can evolve macromolecules 736 00:39:20,500 --> 00:39:16,970 in the fell in my lap and we can do 737 00:39:22,270 --> 00:39:20,510 experiment on that on evolution of manic 738 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:22,280 molecules and for example we are 739 00:39:27,700 --> 00:39:24,890 starting to form our NP complexes so 740 00:39:29,740 --> 00:39:27,710 many involving are you molecule which is 741 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:29,750 probably one type of specialization of 742 00:39:35,260 --> 00:39:33,290 forming from in catalytic are MPs and so 743 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:35,270 what I want to say is that with those 744 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:37,610 molecular for with this molecular focus 745 00:39:42,460 --> 00:39:40,130 we can we can do experiments we can look 746 00:39:46,380 --> 00:39:42,470 at populations we can get went data and 747 00:39:48,790 --> 00:39:46,390 we can we can get very quantitative data 748 00:39:51,870 --> 00:39:48,800 and so 749 00:39:57,220 --> 00:39:51,880 which may makes lots of things 750 00:39:58,900 --> 00:39:57,230 addressable quantitatively and as an 751 00:40:00,910 --> 00:39:58,910 evolutionary transition if we consider 752 00:40:03,610 --> 00:40:00,920 for example multicellularity as being 753 00:40:10,390 --> 00:40:03,620 the consequence of what which molecule 754 00:40:11,770 --> 00:40:10,400 is it that hotel together it was as far 755 00:40:15,220 --> 00:40:11,780 as I understood it was one major 756 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:15,230 molecule that was holding cells together 757 00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:16,610 that enabled the rights of 758 00:40:23,590 --> 00:40:20,570 multicellularity but come correct well 759 00:40:25,630 --> 00:40:23,600 there that I don't know that perhaps in 760 00:40:28,060 --> 00:40:25,640 amongst animals but I think that in 761 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:28,070 other multicellular groups there a 762 00:40:35,410 --> 00:40:33,050 variety of glycoproteins and lip of 763 00:40:40,890 --> 00:40:35,420 polysaccharides i think it's i think 764 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:40,900 it's its tax on specific you know 765 00:40:52,290 --> 00:40:48,170 amongst protists and fungi so but there 766 00:40:58,660 --> 00:40:56,170 extracellular matrix compounds that act 767 00:41:01,480 --> 00:40:58,670 as the glue so that it's a finite set 768 00:41:04,330 --> 00:41:01,490 but it's not just one it's at least 769 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:04,340 that's my understanding of dealing all 770 00:41:12,150 --> 00:41:07,970 the with the view across the periodic 771 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:12,160 and well across the all three domains 772 00:41:17,380 --> 00:41:14,570 Frank what I would have to do does that 773 00:41:19,380 --> 00:41:17,390 does that imply that multicellularity 774 00:41:23,890 --> 00:41:19,390 arose independently in different groups 775 00:41:25,860 --> 00:41:23,900 it certainly did there are many 776 00:41:30,460 --> 00:41:25,870 independent evolutions of 777 00:41:33,490 --> 00:41:30,470 multicellularity even within fairly 778 00:41:36,580 --> 00:41:33,500 narrow clades such as the volta seeing 779 00:41:39,100 --> 00:41:36,590 algae everybody is you know all of us 780 00:41:41,170 --> 00:41:39,110 you know at some point you know peered 781 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:41,180 and evolve Excel you know when we were 782 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:45,410 probably in grammar school and within 783 00:41:50,890 --> 00:41:48,290 this clade of depending upon whether 784 00:41:52,720 --> 00:41:50,900 you're a lump or splitter say you know 785 00:41:54,630 --> 00:41:52,730 about twenty organisms you've had 786 00:41:57,610 --> 00:41:54,640 multiple and you've had multiple 787 00:42:00,340 --> 00:41:57,620 evolutions of multicellularity and so 788 00:42:01,730 --> 00:42:00,350 this appears to have happened a number 789 00:42:05,230 --> 00:42:01,740 of times 790 00:42:08,290 --> 00:42:05,240 not in a distant past some sometimes 791 00:42:12,470 --> 00:42:08,300 even within you know the last you know 792 00:42:17,530 --> 00:42:12,480 50 million years so yes there are after 793 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:17,540 biology good go ahead no no no please 794 00:42:21,859 --> 00:42:19,650 what one thing just thinking about 795 00:42:23,900 --> 00:42:21,869 astrobiology here in general is which 796 00:42:25,940 --> 00:42:23,910 one of these so which one's of these 797 00:42:28,580 --> 00:42:25,950 major evolutionary transitions are the 798 00:42:30,980 --> 00:42:28,590 ones that are easy to do and have arisen 799 00:42:33,500 --> 00:42:30,990 multiple times and which ones have been 800 00:42:35,359 --> 00:42:33,510 unique and maybe chance events that are 801 00:42:36,830 --> 00:42:35,369 not likely to be repeated I guess I 802 00:42:39,710 --> 00:42:36,840 would expect that if we were looking on 803 00:42:40,910 --> 00:42:39,720 other planets that the the the out the 804 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:40,920 evolutionary transitions that are 805 00:42:44,450 --> 00:42:43,170 repeated events here seem to be like the 806 00:42:46,670 --> 00:42:44,460 most likely to be the ones that are 807 00:42:48,260 --> 00:42:46,680 repeated elsewhere and the one graphic 808 00:42:52,070 --> 00:42:48,270 right out here are likely to be the 809 00:42:55,190 --> 00:42:52,080 Tampa nents there yeah so for example i 810 00:42:57,950 --> 00:42:55,200 mean i think that the transitions that 811 00:43:01,160 --> 00:42:57,960 doeth marion main Art Smith shows were 812 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:01,170 ones that were had clearly happened not 813 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:04,890 just once but multiple times and so it's 814 00:43:09,950 --> 00:43:08,010 it's that the eukaryotic cell there's 815 00:43:12,670 --> 00:43:09,960 not a eukaryotic cell there are many 816 00:43:17,720 --> 00:43:12,680 different kinds of eukaryotic cells and 817 00:43:20,599 --> 00:43:17,730 they have acquired their organelles in 818 00:43:22,310 --> 00:43:20,609 different ways but independently 819 00:43:26,540 --> 00:43:22,320 certainly the lineage that's given rise 820 00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:26,550 to animals acquired what is now or the 821 00:43:32,630 --> 00:43:29,250 winner you know just like they say 822 00:43:36,109 --> 00:43:32,640 history is written by the winners you 823 00:43:38,210 --> 00:43:36,119 know the evolutionary history is written 824 00:43:40,700 --> 00:43:38,220 by winners as well and so we have the 825 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:40,710 winning modicon trian but there's no 826 00:43:45,670 --> 00:43:43,290 reason to suspect that in the early 827 00:43:50,030 --> 00:43:45,680 going that there were not many 828 00:43:52,220 --> 00:43:50,040 experiments that that gave the bigger 829 00:43:55,550 --> 00:43:52,230 bang for the buck that I you know that 830 00:44:00,560 --> 00:43:55,560 some alpha proteobacteria back when gays 831 00:44:02,900 --> 00:44:00,570 so there these transitions from 832 00:44:07,130 --> 00:44:02,910 prokaryote do you carry out to from a 833 00:44:10,099 --> 00:44:07,140 sexual to sexual organisms from protists 834 00:44:12,950 --> 00:44:10,109 to multicellular organisms you can show 835 00:44:15,170 --> 00:44:12,960 multiple evolutionary origins for all of 836 00:44:18,859 --> 00:44:15,180 these things 837 00:44:21,799 --> 00:44:18,869 so let me ask the participants now if 838 00:44:24,309 --> 00:44:21,809 there are other people who want to talk 839 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:24,319 and as Mike just put in the chat window 840 00:44:30,290 --> 00:44:27,930 at the top of the screen right side of 841 00:44:33,049 --> 00:44:30,300 the camera you'll see a little person 842 00:44:35,329 --> 00:44:33,059 with a hand held up you can click on 843 00:44:41,059 --> 00:44:35,339 that and that lets me know and it so it 844 00:44:42,890 --> 00:44:41,069 pops you in the queue um and just while 845 00:44:45,230 --> 00:44:42,900 people are thinking about that and good 846 00:44:48,370 --> 00:44:45,240 comment in the chat window hear about 847 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:48,380 from looks like i've only got initials 848 00:44:56,329 --> 00:44:53,010 ciw so this idea of taking 02 off the 849 00:44:58,579 --> 00:44:56,339 table does that mean that we define 850 00:45:02,390 --> 00:44:58,589 evolutionary complexity in terms of the 851 00:45:09,230 --> 00:45:02,400 emergence of metabolic complexity all 852 00:45:11,359 --> 00:45:09,240 the other to the same on that level you 853 00:45:14,599 --> 00:45:11,369 know I'm getting I'm getting comments 854 00:45:17,750 --> 00:45:14,609 here by is it Yuri Yuri can you actually 855 00:45:20,780 --> 00:45:17,760 chime in so that in fact he has his hand 856 00:45:23,630 --> 00:45:20,790 raised so rather than me you know 857 00:45:27,220 --> 00:45:23,640 distilling and possibly misinterpreting 858 00:45:32,299 --> 00:45:27,230 his remarks I'd like to hear from either 859 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:32,309 him or Eric directly on these points so 860 00:45:40,579 --> 00:45:36,930 let's go with urea men Eric so Yuri it 861 00:45:43,730 --> 00:45:40,589 star six to unmute yourself a belief 862 00:45:45,470 --> 00:45:43,740 actually um but I can't classic on this 863 00:45:47,420 --> 00:45:45,480 telephone that I'm on because I'm i 864 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:47,430 called it on a bike on yes you hear me 865 00:45:55,069 --> 00:45:52,170 you hear you perfect hyper for you um 866 00:45:58,609 --> 00:45:55,079 well it's good to hear your voice great 867 00:46:01,640 --> 00:45:58,619 thanks a lot might be here I just was 868 00:46:03,559 --> 00:46:01,650 made aware of this webinar from of my 869 00:46:06,170 --> 00:46:03,569 colleagues at university of southern 870 00:46:08,299 --> 00:46:06,180 california and i don't see them any of 871 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:08,309 those I don't think on the line here so 872 00:46:14,870 --> 00:46:11,490 we were just awarded one of these uh any 873 00:46:16,700 --> 00:46:14,880 eyes and I've moved up here to Troy at 874 00:46:19,609 --> 00:46:16,710 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute come up 875 00:46:23,109 --> 00:46:19,619 here in upstate New York I didn't want 876 00:46:26,240 --> 00:46:23,119 to just kind of go back a couple of 877 00:46:28,910 --> 00:46:26,250 comments or earth line back in the chat 878 00:46:31,010 --> 00:46:28,920 room where I put that 879 00:46:34,190 --> 00:46:31,020 a paper by my friends and colleagues at 880 00:46:37,490 --> 00:46:34,200 the University of ollies there are 881 00:46:40,210 --> 00:46:37,500 anaerobic eukaryotes I mean and again 882 00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:40,220 the religion age of mitochondrial 883 00:46:45,110 --> 00:46:42,290 different than the lineage of 884 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:45,120 mitochondria that for us present I think 885 00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:46,890 we have rickettsia to convey Eric a 886 00:46:51,620 --> 00:46:49,530 Chilean engine mitochondria correct and 887 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:51,630 I I guess I was trying to quickly 888 00:46:54,410 --> 00:46:53,010 through there but yeah I think it's 889 00:46:58,090 --> 00:46:54,420 either self a little bit so one of these 890 00:47:01,630 --> 00:46:58,100 sulfur organisms were the the 891 00:47:05,770 --> 00:47:01,640 predecessor for the family through 892 00:47:08,180 --> 00:47:05,780 molecular means the predecessor of the 893 00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:08,190 mitochondria and we then take worms and 894 00:47:12,620 --> 00:47:10,530 other foraminifera there's a number of 895 00:47:17,750 --> 00:47:12,630 them and so I don't think that again 896 00:47:21,250 --> 00:47:17,760 that we should our thoughts or the 897 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:21,260 cotton our ideas to oxygen respiring 898 00:47:27,050 --> 00:47:23,850 eukaryotes since we do have examples 899 00:47:29,030 --> 00:47:27,060 here are key on this planet I think that 900 00:47:31,070 --> 00:47:29,040 this is absolutely possible that you 901 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:31,080 could have divergent life-forms 902 00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:34,610 eukaryotic like life forms with with 903 00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:37,890 anaerobic mitochondria that operate is 904 00:47:44,540 --> 00:47:41,610 fine in the absence of oxygen so I I 905 00:47:48,980 --> 00:47:44,550 think that you know we shouldn't again 906 00:47:52,270 --> 00:47:48,990 limit are the possibilities by from our 907 00:47:55,130 --> 00:47:52,280 lack of knowledge of the complexity of 908 00:47:57,260 --> 00:47:55,140 biology that's I just wanted to make 909 00:47:59,960 --> 00:47:57,270 that point silly and the concept of 910 00:48:02,390 --> 00:47:59,970 multicellularity and biofilms upon many 911 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:02,400 of us that study biofilms look at these 912 00:48:07,850 --> 00:48:05,130 not as single organisms in fact there's 913 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:07,860 only a small percentage of organisms and 914 00:48:19,340 --> 00:48:14,610 multicellular or multi multi what is it 915 00:48:20,930 --> 00:48:19,350 you know diverse biofilms that can't 916 00:48:23,390 --> 00:48:20,940 live by themselves and so they are 917 00:48:25,070 --> 00:48:23,400 actually absolutely dependent on their 918 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:25,080 community members and so in that sense 919 00:48:30,470 --> 00:48:28,410 it may not be considered a single 920 00:48:33,500 --> 00:48:30,480 organism but certainly react with an 921 00:48:38,060 --> 00:48:33,510 integrated tissue and you know that 922 00:48:40,550 --> 00:48:38,070 didn't those tissues that our energy can 923 00:48:41,470 --> 00:48:40,560 be shared now through electrical or 924 00:48:43,660 --> 00:48:41,480 through 925 00:48:47,109 --> 00:48:43,670 the pod lights that are released and 926 00:48:50,290 --> 00:48:47,119 then diffused other phones within that 927 00:48:52,620 --> 00:48:50,300 tissue and so again I think that this is 928 00:48:55,090 --> 00:48:52,630 something to continue think about a 929 00:48:57,070 --> 00:48:55,100 diversity and a generation of 930 00:49:00,880 --> 00:48:57,080 multicellular it sandwiches at least 931 00:49:09,070 --> 00:49:00,890 that could be considered that and by 932 00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:09,080 many of us they are excellent Eric do 933 00:49:18,700 --> 00:49:12,170 you want to and on that do you want take 934 00:49:22,030 --> 00:49:18,710 it in a different direction yes yes we 935 00:49:24,130 --> 00:49:22,040 can okay thank you if it's okay i just 936 00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:24,140 wanted to respond to thoughts that are 937 00:49:28,570 --> 00:49:26,210 generated by your point for which would 938 00:49:31,859 --> 00:49:28,580 then be slightly off-topic relative to 939 00:49:37,030 --> 00:49:31,869 the oxygen point let's go right ahead 940 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:37,040 okay my thought is that what we care 941 00:49:43,570 --> 00:49:40,010 about in complicated life as in simple 942 00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:43,580 life is how architectures form that can 943 00:49:50,950 --> 00:49:46,690 take on and preserve and use patterns 944 00:49:53,470 --> 00:49:50,960 it's good to not prejudice that too much 945 00:49:55,930 --> 00:49:53,480 by thinking about a few familiar kinds 946 00:49:57,870 --> 00:49:55,940 of organization so if we ask what 947 00:50:00,550 --> 00:49:57,880 structures evolution at a bare minimum 948 00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:00,560 we have development in the broadest 949 00:50:04,330 --> 00:50:02,090 sense meaning sort of all the 950 00:50:06,609 --> 00:50:04,340 constructive activities with an ontogeny 951 00:50:09,070 --> 00:50:06,619 we have transmission we have selection 952 00:50:11,470 --> 00:50:09,080 and we have ecology and in all of these 953 00:50:14,349 --> 00:50:11,480 there can be hierarchical nested units 954 00:50:16,540 --> 00:50:14,359 of organization it's very good to talk 955 00:50:18,790 --> 00:50:16,550 about units of solution but it's also 956 00:50:20,710 --> 00:50:18,800 very good to recognize units of all the 957 00:50:22,810 --> 00:50:20,720 others because these are the things that 958 00:50:24,910 --> 00:50:22,820 determine how variation is structured 959 00:50:27,070 --> 00:50:24,920 they determine what the arenas are 960 00:50:29,770 --> 00:50:27,080 within which selection takes place and 961 00:50:31,620 --> 00:50:29,780 it strikes me that what we care about is 962 00:50:33,849 --> 00:50:31,630 the emergence of complexity in 963 00:50:34,870 --> 00:50:33,859 evolutionary dynamics and also an 964 00:50:37,330 --> 00:50:34,880 interaction with the boundary 965 00:50:41,859 --> 00:50:37,340 constraints and to use a language that 966 00:50:44,650 --> 00:50:41,869 keeps that field open to all to studying 967 00:50:46,510 --> 00:50:44,660 all of the relevant structures seems to 968 00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:46,520 be a healthy direction especially if 969 00:50:50,410 --> 00:50:48,410 you're trying to lay out a roadmap and I 970 00:50:53,140 --> 00:50:50,420 guess in one sense that was also where 971 00:50:54,730 --> 00:50:53,150 the oxygen point came from to recognize 972 00:50:55,390 --> 00:50:54,740 that all of these things really are 973 00:50:57,549 --> 00:50:55,400 system 974 00:50:59,529 --> 00:50:57,559 conversions within which we may 975 00:51:02,920 --> 00:50:59,539 recognize a certain kind of innovation 976 00:51:05,230 --> 00:51:02,930 as the marker of the event but often 977 00:51:07,390 --> 00:51:05,240 it's not the only determiner of the 978 00:51:13,079 --> 00:51:07,400 event as we see in many many transitions 979 00:51:17,549 --> 00:51:13,089 over and over again thank you guys 980 00:51:20,559 --> 00:51:17,559 thoughts on that no I'm in just an 981 00:51:28,260 --> 00:51:20,569 excellent point and certainly you know 982 00:51:31,870 --> 00:51:28,270 one to be it would be nice if perhaps 983 00:51:35,349 --> 00:51:31,880 Eric could well he has written some 984 00:51:40,329 --> 00:51:35,359 comments as the week goes on we'll some 985 00:51:42,940 --> 00:51:40,339 of the the notes be available to those 986 00:51:45,099 --> 00:51:42,950 people who log in and discuss because 987 00:51:48,670 --> 00:51:45,109 that's actually a point that I would 988 00:51:52,390 --> 00:51:48,680 like to see discussed further is very 989 00:51:54,029 --> 00:51:52,400 eloquently put you know in by Eric just 990 00:51:57,390 --> 00:51:54,039 now what a transcript of that be 991 00:52:00,670 --> 00:51:57,400 available from this point going forward 992 00:52:03,099 --> 00:52:00,680 yeah what will happen is we'll have the 993 00:52:06,730 --> 00:52:03,109 video process like tomorrow we'll have 994 00:52:09,039 --> 00:52:06,740 the transcript and we're going to 995 00:52:11,589 --> 00:52:09,049 experiment to see if we could break out 996 00:52:13,299 --> 00:52:11,599 any of these points in two separate 997 00:52:16,769 --> 00:52:13,309 threads so certainly I think it's 998 00:52:19,839 --> 00:52:16,779 particularly interesting to think about 999 00:52:22,089 --> 00:52:19,849 what are the assumptions or even 1000 00:52:25,720 --> 00:52:22,099 meta-level assumptions that we need to 1001 00:52:28,420 --> 00:52:25,730 be aware of in developing a roadmap so 1002 00:52:30,190 --> 00:52:28,430 over and above what questions might we 1003 00:52:32,710 --> 00:52:30,200 have it's also really interesting to 1004 00:52:34,750 --> 00:52:32,720 think about what assumptions we must try 1005 00:52:36,910 --> 00:52:34,760 and transcend in the development of the 1006 00:52:40,210 --> 00:52:36,920 roadmap and that sounds particularly 1007 00:52:43,029 --> 00:52:40,220 important and in fact Eric will will pop 1008 00:52:45,359 --> 00:52:43,039 the transcript tab you may want to raise 1009 00:52:48,130 --> 00:52:45,369 that as a completely separate question 1010 00:52:50,549 --> 00:52:48,140 in a thread just to make sure that we 1011 00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:50,559 don't come to butcher your language 1012 00:52:57,940 --> 00:52:53,450 unintentionally instead of breaking out 1013 00:53:01,420 --> 00:52:57,950 the threads on them um okay sean has 1014 00:53:04,620 --> 00:53:01,430 also been popping up some questions here 1015 00:53:07,660 --> 00:53:04,630 if you have a look in the live notes the 1016 00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:07,670 last one down do we have any clues on 1017 00:53:12,350 --> 00:53:09,650 what global signatures 1018 00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:12,360 and while you're thinking about that 1019 00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:14,130 just remind people we still got a couple 1020 00:53:18,830 --> 00:53:16,050 of minutes left if anyone else wants to 1021 00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:18,840 ask a question I'm stickier your hand in 1022 00:53:26,570 --> 00:53:22,770 the air and we'll come to you yeah this 1023 00:53:30,020 --> 00:53:26,580 is this was this was a question by seans 1024 00:53:31,790 --> 00:53:30,030 that correct and it was of the 10 1025 00:53:35,450 --> 00:53:31,800 questions that we generated the other 1026 00:53:38,450 --> 00:53:35,460 day while the second question was not 1027 00:53:43,010 --> 00:53:38,460 part of it that the first was in fact 1028 00:53:48,850 --> 00:53:43,020 almost exactly question number 7 that 1029 00:53:55,100 --> 00:53:51,770 Matt would since you the paleontologist 1030 00:54:00,740 --> 00:53:55,110 would you like to take a stab at that 1031 00:54:01,850 --> 00:54:00,750 and perhaps Yuri might also so that gets 1032 00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:01,860 the question I don't think have any 1033 00:54:06,470 --> 00:54:04,170 clues on what global signatures we could 1034 00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:06,480 look for from advanced life and a 1035 00:54:12,110 --> 00:54:09,650 globally anaerobic surface environment 1036 00:54:14,270 --> 00:54:12,120 you know from a remote sensing 1037 00:54:19,340 --> 00:54:14,280 standpoint I have no idea it's just not 1038 00:54:22,670 --> 00:54:19,350 my areas of specialization but I think 1039 00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:22,680 on a larger scale looking at life on 1040 00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:24,330 Earth and seeing under what conditions 1041 00:54:30,290 --> 00:54:27,210 life looks a certain way or does not and 1042 00:54:32,030 --> 00:54:30,300 then finding those analog environments 1043 00:54:34,070 --> 00:54:32,040 and other planets is actually answering 1044 00:54:35,450 --> 00:54:34,080 the same question it doesn't confirm 1045 00:54:37,490 --> 00:54:35,460 that there's life there it just means 1046 00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:37,500 that the possibility for life under 1047 00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:39,210 these particular circumstances is there 1048 00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:41,490 and you know maybe it's not as nice as 1049 00:54:45,500 --> 00:54:43,410 some sort of satellite they can beam the 1050 00:54:49,610 --> 00:54:45,510 planet and tell you what life is they're 1051 00:54:50,990 --> 00:54:49,620 not but I think it's a it does double 1052 00:54:53,570 --> 00:54:51,000 duty in the sense that it helps you 1053 00:54:56,930 --> 00:54:53,580 understand the presence of life are not 1054 00:54:58,990 --> 00:54:56,940 on other planets and also helps you 1055 00:55:01,760 --> 00:54:59,000 understand the life on on this planet 1056 00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:01,770 which does exist and so in that sense 1057 00:55:07,580 --> 00:55:04,170 it's a you know bang for your buck in 1058 00:55:11,630 --> 00:55:07,590 that regard to I also wanted to pick up 1059 00:55:13,430 --> 00:55:11,640 here on oles point that and sort of a 1060 00:55:17,690 --> 00:55:13,440 also Eric's point which was which is 1061 00:55:19,700 --> 00:55:17,700 excellent and one thing that that he 1062 00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:19,710 said is that there but they only said 1063 00:55:22,980 --> 00:55:21,090 there are many possibilities for major 1064 00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:22,990 evolutionary step and he was 1065 00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:24,770 referring to Frank's comment about 1066 00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:26,690 multicellularity evolving multiple times 1067 00:55:30,790 --> 00:55:28,490 and it strikes me that there are also 1068 00:55:32,770 --> 00:55:30,800 many physical environmental events in 1069 00:55:35,290 --> 00:55:32,780 Earth history that were not accompanied 1070 00:55:37,330 --> 00:55:35,300 by some sort of major evolutionary step 1071 00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:37,340 in some ways defining the major 1072 00:55:42,580 --> 00:55:40,490 evolutionary transitions is to say that 1073 00:55:45,370 --> 00:55:42,590 we have recognized that something major 1074 00:55:46,660 --> 00:55:45,380 happen to life at that time and then we 1075 00:55:48,610 --> 00:55:46,670 go looking for the cause of what 1076 00:55:50,500 --> 00:55:48,620 happened but there's also these times 1077 00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:50,510 when the when major environmental things 1078 00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:52,450 may have happened but that they were not 1079 00:55:57,820 --> 00:55:56,210 reflected then in in any anything 1080 00:56:01,960 --> 00:55:57,830 recognizable to us in the history of 1081 00:56:04,660 --> 00:56:01,970 life and so I don't think a useful 1082 00:56:06,340 --> 00:56:04,670 research direction is is something which 1083 00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:06,350 is not biological at all which is to 1084 00:56:11,170 --> 00:56:08,290 look at the absence of biological change 1085 00:56:14,650 --> 00:56:11,180 during times of major environmental 1086 00:56:16,330 --> 00:56:14,660 shifts so far as I'm as I know I don't 1087 00:56:18,100 --> 00:56:16,340 think many much of that would happen in 1088 00:56:22,210 --> 00:56:18,110 the phanerozoic but if you go back far 1089 00:56:24,010 --> 00:56:22,220 enough there may be times like that that 1090 00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:24,020 to me would be just as interesting and 1091 00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:27,530 understanding why things evolve 1092 00:56:39,100 --> 00:56:31,010 complexity you know it by looking at 1093 00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:39,110 when they don't ok and with that ladies 1094 00:56:44,950 --> 00:56:41,890 gentlemen I am I'm going to wrap this up 1095 00:56:47,110 --> 00:56:44,960 the recording will be available tomorrow 1096 00:56:49,540 --> 00:56:47,120 morning if you want to mention it to 1097 00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:49,550 your colleagues and we will send out a 1098 00:56:54,550 --> 00:56:51,290 newsletter to make sure everyone has 1099 00:56:57,130 --> 00:56:54,560 that the questions which Frank has been 1100 00:56:59,650 --> 00:56:57,140 referring to the additional questions 1101 00:57:01,570 --> 00:56:59,660 which they develop will be available on 1102 00:57:03,310 --> 00:57:01,580 the website however I've just had a 1103 00:57:05,410 --> 00:57:03,320 message from one of my colleagues saying 1104 00:57:06,850 --> 00:57:05,420 that apparently there's an ever so 1105 00:57:08,710 --> 00:57:06,860 slight problem with the way the 1106 00:57:11,860 --> 00:57:08,720 threading is working on the website 1107 00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:11,870 seemingly a kitten got in and monkeyed 1108 00:57:17,020 --> 00:57:14,570 around with ball of wool we we need to 1109 00:57:20,260 --> 00:57:17,030 straighten that out so the questions 1110 00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:20,270 won't be up today but as soon as we send 1111 00:57:26,590 --> 00:57:24,050 out the newsletter we will let you know 1112 00:57:31,210 --> 00:57:26,600 that it's back and that will want your 1113 00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:31,220 input on that um so thank you very much 1114 00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:33,890 very interesting discussion we shall all 1115 00:57:37,310 --> 00:57:35,250 go off from ponder